菊花好朋友國瑞來囉～國瑞跟美瑜有十多年的交情，這段緣份從哪開始的呢？
國瑞參與好多年的帕斯提養生團以及第一二屆的菊花，有什麼讓他印象深刻的嗎？
就讓我們用最華麗的音效迎接國瑞出場*\(^_^)/*
本集使用音樂「月光海灘」Kevin MacLeod
依據知識分享授權：依歸屬 4.0 授權
<錄音全文>
雅婷：哈囉大家好，歡迎收聽菊花獨白的podcast，我是雅婷！
Yating: Hello everyone, welcome to The Anus Monologues podcast. I am Yating!
美瑜：我是美瑜
Meiyu: I am Meiyu.
蚊子：哈囉大家好，我是蚊子
Wentz: Hello everyone! I am Wentz!
國瑞：哈囉大家好，我是國瑞
Garry: Hello everyone, I am Garry
雅婷：今天我們有一個新的夥伴是國瑞，那國瑞其實他蠻辛苦的，他又在花蓮念研究所，然後他又常常每個禮拜這樣子來台北參加團體，那我們請國瑞介紹一下，自己在哪裡認識了美瑜，然後怎麼樣加入同行者成為夥伴。
Yating: Today we have a new partner, Garry. Actually, Garry is quite hardworking. He is studying in graduate school in Hualien, and he often comes to Taipei every week to participate in groups. Let’s invite Garry. Let me introduce how I met Meiyu and how he become the partner of Hand In Hand Association of Taiwan.
蚊子：我們上次已經數過，我們認識多久了，這次應該可以不用再數了吧！
Wentz: We already counted how long we have known each other last time, so we probably don’t have to count anymore this time!
國瑞：喔對～反正我們應該是2013、14年的時候認識
Garry: Oh, right~ Anyway, we should have known each other in 2013 or 2014
雅婷：喔，所以就是我跟美瑜結婚之後才認識的
Yating: Oh, so you only met Meiyu after we got married.
國瑞：對呀，就是你們兩個那時候正在上節目，然後那時候我跟駿文在看，這個人出現在我們課堂的時候，覺得這個人怎麼看起來這麼眼熟，可是我又想不起來這個人在哪裡看到了，可是覺得這個人莫名的眼熟
Garry:Yes, you two were on the show at that time, and Wentz and I were watching it at that time. When this person appeared in our class, I thought why this person looked so familiar, but I couldn’t remember it. Where have I seen this person, but I feel that this person looks inexplicably familiar?
雅婷：所以你們兩個是因為看到了她的訪問，然後又到她出現在教室裡頭，才覺得特別想要認識她嗎？
Yating: So it was because you saw her interview and then she appeared in the classroom that you felt particularly eager to get to know her?
國瑞：還是駿文先的頭？
Garry: Or did Wentz start it first?
蚊子：我沒有特別想要認識，是她找我麻煩（笑）
Wentz: I don’t particularly want to get to know her, it’s her who is causing trouble for me (laughs)
國瑞：那個錄音筆的，喔！原來是找麻煩的事情喔！
Garry: About that recorder, oh! It turned out to be a cause for trouble!
雅婷：那國瑞呢？
Yating: How about Garry?
國瑞：我是因為他們兩個突然熟了，然後我
Garry: Because the two of them suddenly became acquainted, and then I
美瑜：其實沒有熟啊。
Meiyu: Actually, Not
國瑞：然後我們就聊起來
Garry: Then we started chatting
蚊子：那是一種抱怨，但是不敢說，所以
Wentz: That’s a complaint, but I don’t have the courage to say it, so
國瑞：駿文就開始說，誒她就是上次那個上節目的＆％＠＊那個人
Garry: Wentz started to say, hey, she is the one who was on the show last time&%@*
雅婷：喔！所以後來你們就是在研究所就認識了美瑜，這樣子，不得不認識了美瑜。美瑜是怎麼說服你，然後讓你來加入一些同行者的活動呢？
Yating: oh! So you got to know Meiyu right in the research institute. In this case, you had to get to know Meiyu. How did Meiyu convince you to join activities of Hand In Hand Association of Taiwan?
美瑜：我有說服你嗎？
Meiyu: Have I convinced you?
國瑞：（笑）好喔！我應該用壓迫嗎？沒有！開玩笑！就是那時候快畢業
Garry: (laughing) OK! Should I use oppression? No! joke! It was then that I was about to graduate
駿文：天秤座開玩笑都有三分是真的喔！
Wentz: 30% of Libra’s jokes are true!
美瑜：就是嘛！我知道，我聽進去了
Meiyu: That’s it! I know, I listened
雅婷：我也要用這種方式
Yating: I want to use this method too
蚊子：好，那時候畢業怎麼樣呢？
Wentz: Okay, what happens after you graduate?
國瑞：那時候快畢業啊。最主要是我就是認識美瑜的中間，應該就是我跟駿文，然後美瑜，然後那段時間因為有使用藥物，然後狀況不太好，然後在寫論文的那個階段這樣，反正身心靈都有一些狀況，那時候就是受他的一些幫忙，幫助
Garry: I was about to graduate at that time. The most important thing is that I met Meiyu in the middle, probably Wentz and I, and then Meiyu. During that time, because of the use of drugs, her condition was not very good, and then at the stage of writing the thesis, it was like this. In some situations, I received some help from him at that time.
美瑜：你那時候明明就玩得很瘋
Meiyu: You were obviously crazy at that time
國瑞：那時候還好，我後來覺得有一段時間，我玩得更瘋，對，不過那段時間真的是有點迷迷茫茫比較嚴重一點，反正那時候是快畢業了吧！然後美瑜那時候先成立同行者，然後就覺得反正之前有受她幫忙，然後就先
Garry: It was fine at that time, but I later felt that there was a period of time when I played more crazily, yes, but during that period I was really a little confused and more serious. Anyway, I was about to graduate at that time! Then Meiyu first established the association at that time, and then she felt that she had helped her before, and then we started
美瑜：你什麼鬼啊！明明就是我們3個人一起討論要成立什麼東西的，名字都是我們一起想，
Meiyu: What are you talking? Obviously the three of us discussed it together, and we all came up with the names together.
國瑞：可是因為
Garry:but
美瑜：還找了那個老師來幫我們算命，
Meiyu: We also found that numerology teacher
國瑞：反正最主要是後面，然後再來就是那時候先建議我去上長照課程，然後那時候其實畢業也不知道自己要幹嘛，我本來以前老師教我也就是經絡理療，所以那時候還在想說要不要做這一塊，這樣就美瑜說那你要不要，反正那時候已經感染了，就愛滋感染，然後美瑜就說那你要不要，反正我們以後去推愛滋長照等等等，然後想說，喔！好像也可以耶，反正以後不知道自己要，反正以後自己可能橫死街頭，這樣找個地方有歸屬也比較好。愛滋本來就不是很多人在照顧的那個狀態，然後很容易就有可能被家人遺棄啊，橫死街頭，以前聽到的都是這種概念，然後就覺得好吧！自己照顧別人，也許某一天會被照顧
Garry: Anyway, the most important thing is the latter part, and then it was suggested that I take long-term care courses. At that time, I actually didn’t know what I wanted to do after graduation. My previous teacher taught me meridian physiotherapy, so I was still thinking about it at that time. When I asked if I wanted to do this, Meiyu asked me if I wanted to do it. Anyway, I was already infected at that time, so it was AIDS. Then Meiyu said if I wanted to do it, anyway, we will promote long-term AIDS care in the future, etc. , and then wanted to say, Oh! It seems okay. Anyway, I don’t know what I want in the future. Anyway, I may die on the streets in the future. It would be better to find a place to belong to. AIDS is not a condition that many people take care of, and then it is easy to be abandoned by family members and die on the streets. I have heard this concept before, and then I thought okay! Take care of others, and maybe one day you will be taken care of
美瑜：就多認識一點互相照顧的人，這樣子
Meiyu: Just get to know more people who take care of each other, like this
國瑞：對，就是那時候就覺得好吧！就去做做看長照，所以那一開始的動機其實是因為沒有工作呢！然後也不知道幹嘛呢？所以就藉著這個訊息就去走這一條，然後後面就跟著美瑜，就是做同行者的部分，就是協助戒癮的部分。
Garry: Yes, that’s when I thought, okay! I wanted to work in Long-Term Care, so my initial motivation was actually because I didn’t have a job! And then I don’t know what to do? So I took this message and followed this path, followed by Meiyu, who is the part of the association that helps with addiction recovery.
蚊子：我蠻好奇的，就是因為比如說身為跟帕養團成員，有相同經驗的用藥、H又是個男同志，就是你跟他有相同經驗，然後你又在帶團體，會對於你這些經驗有什麼不一樣的力量進來嗎？
Wentz: I’m quite curious, because for example, as a member of thePositive health group, you have the same experience with medication, H, and you are a gay man, which means you have the same experience as him, and then you are leading a group, what will happen to you? Does experience have any different power coming in?
國瑞：我覺得比較是他們在講的狀況，因為可能你自己也經驗過，所以就覺得他講的那一段，就是我們會懂，然後其實很多人在團體裡面其實都會懂，然後只是把那個懂的感覺更清楚的呈現在活動裡面，某一種程度，因為大家都很相似吧！所以有時候我自己都在團體裡面哭哭這樣，覺得也可以找到安慰，
Garry: I think it is more like the situation they are talking about. Because maybe you have experienced it yourself, so you feel that the part he talked about is that we will understand. In fact, many people in the group will actually understand, and then they just feel that they understand. It is more clearly presented in the activities, to a certain extent, because everyone is very similar! So sometimes I cry in the group, and I think I can find comfort.
雅婷：那請國瑞分享一下，就是你這連續兩屆參加工作坊的一個觀察，雖然你可能出席，並沒有每一次
Yating: Please share your observations from attending the two consecutive workshops, although you may not have attended every time.
國瑞：對，好先說我自己的觀察，我自己覺得我觀察我自己的狀態，就是覺得好累，一個是要兩邊跑，然後那時候我其實都還會有一種，我自己都還沒有把自己的狀態搞定，然後又要進入一個新的團體，但是我覺得這個團體其實很有趣，只是當時最初的狀況是這樣，對，然後就開始慢慢進入的時候，發現其實還是有一些想要往下談的東西吧！也剛好是因為上次那個講師，來談到那個過去性侵，她說那個三歲被性侵的經驗，
Garry: Yes, let me talk about my own observations first. I feel that when I observe my own state, I feel very tired. One is having to run on both sides. Then at that time, I actually still have a feeling. I haven’t put my own I got the status quo, and then I had to join a new group, but I think this group is actually very interesting, but the initial situation was like this, yes, and then when I started to slowly enter, I found that there were still some things I wanted to talk about. something! It happened to be because the lecturer last time came to talk about past sexual assault. She talked about her experience of being sexually assaulted when she was three years old.
美瑜：喔秀眉的那個經驗
Meiyu: Oh her experience
國瑞：對啊！然後我覺得好酷喔！然後他在談說那個經驗，就是其實還是有愉悅的感覺，雖然以前知道好像可以往這邊談，但是沒有人真的這樣談，然後她就開啟了我就是其實沒有不舒服，但我實際上經驗了很多不舒服，那個不舒服，就是我在國中性侵的過程，過程是舒服的，但結束以後呢？過了一年，然後開始，就是當某一種小秘密，然後去跟同學講，同學覺得聽得很嚴重以後，進入了那個輔導的過程，就覺得那個沒有很舒服，就是好像很多人來問說到底那當時發生了什麼事啊？然後怎麼會這樣啊？你不是男生嗎？你不會保護自己嗎？＆％＠＊然後也有人問說，就是你不是被走到一半，你怎麼還繼續跟他走我說啊！不就是走不開，不然能怎麼辦，不就是那時候手被拉著，然後後來就去拆解那個當時的那個經驗的過程，才想說其實有舒服，然後有驚嚇，然後也會有一種對自己的埋怨或生氣，就是好像我自己是個男生，好像不能這樣子，對！當時就是把那個經驗再更清楚的一個一個把它拆開，是因為藉由秀眉那時候的分享，然後才開始意識到有這些，就是這些東西，以前知道有，但是不會把它特別的提出來，然後才開始意識到，其實有這些東西，然後這些東西才一塊一塊把它撿回來，她來了那一次以後，開啟了蠻多現場的夥伴，有一些對自己過去的那些經驗，有不同的想像或想法，然後才有一些新的，呈現這樣。但是，有時候然後我自己在進入要把這些東西用演的表達出來的時候，我自己雖然說可以演，但是我自己都會有一個
Garry: yes! Then I thought it was so cool! Then he was talking about that experience, which was that he still felt pleasant. Although he knew that he could talk about it in the past, no one really talked about it like this. Then she opened the door to me. In fact, I didn’t feel uncomfortable, but I actually I experienced a lot of discomfort, and that discomfort was the process of sexual assault in junior high school. The process was comfortable, but what about after it was over? After a year, I started to keep it as a little secret and tell it to my classmates. After my classmates felt that it was very serious, they entered the counseling process and felt that it was not very comfortable. It seemed that many people came to ask questions. After all, what happened then? Then how could this happen? Aren’t you a boy? Don’t you know how to protect yourself? Then some people asked, even if you were not walked halfway, why did you continue to follow him? Let me tell you! It’s not that I can’t walk away, otherwise what can I do? Isn’t it that my hand was held at that time, and then I went to dismantle the process of that experience at that time, and then I want to say that there was actually comfort, and then there was fright, and then there was also a kind of Complaining or being angry with myself is like being a boy and I can’t be like this, right! At that time, I made that experience clearer and took it apart one by one. It was because of Xiu Mei’s sharing at that time that I began to realize that these things existed. I knew they existed before, but I didn’t think of them as special. After she brought it up, she began to realize that there were actually these things, and then she picked them up piece by piece. After she came that time, she opened up a lot of on-site partners, some of whom had experience in her past, and some Different imaginations or ideas, and then some new ones, appear like this. However, sometimes when I want to express these things through acting, although I say I can act, I will have a problem.
美瑜：我看到你的僵硬
Meiyu: I noticed that your body is very stiff
國瑞：對，會有個防線
Garry: Yes, there will be a line of defense
美瑜：對，因為我們是一起去年的那個菊花，那個時候一起演的時候，我可以感覺到國瑞的那個，他跟演的這個人，因為他自己是當事人，可是他要演那個曾經那樣對他的人，我覺得那個那種自我隔離的感覺，然後整個肢體，其實是很僵硬的，我確實覺得我們當時要那樣子去安排角色的時候，其實我也在想會不會太太衝擊，可是後來你說你可以，然後我就想說好吧！那我們就一起試試，看我其實心理面是擔心的，因為當時那麼多人要去演出他們生命中的每一個，他們不願意對別人，從來沒有跟別人談起的，那些很碎裂的破碎的那些回憶，而且是他們也沒有辦法去談的，我覺得在演出的，排演的過程，然後一直到演出，其實我一直都在看對我們的夥伴到底會有什麼樣子，接下來的，不管影響也好，或者是他怎麼重新去理解，他跟這一些經驗之間的關係，但其實你現在這樣講，我覺得還蠻好的，真的。
Meiyu: Yes, because when we acted together last year, I could feel the person Garry was playing, because he himself was the person involved, but he wanted to play the person who had treated him like that. I felt that feeling of self-isolation, and the whole body was actually very stiff. I really felt that when we were arranging the characters in that way, I was actually thinking about whether it would be a shock to my wife, but then you said you could , and then I thought okay! Then let’s try it together. I’m actually worried psychologically, because at that time so many people were going to perform every part of their lives. They didn’t want to tell others, and they never talked about it with others. Those things were very broken. Those broken memories, and they have no way to talk about them, I think during the performance, the rehearsal process, and then until the performance, I was actually always looking at what it would be like for our partners. Next, Regardless of the impact, or how he re-understands the relationship between him and these experiences, I think it’s pretty good when you talk about it now, really.
國瑞：就是當我不管是要演那個角色或是重新要再講這一些故事的時候，其實我有一段時間，真的很不想再講，就是我已經寫出來了還要講，然後我當然我自己知道那個寫沒有寫得很清楚，但是就覺得
Garry: That is, when I want to play that role or retell these stories, in fact, for a period of time, I really don’t want to tell them again, even though I have already written them and I still want to tell them. Then of course I know it myself. I didn’t write that clearly, but I feel like
蚊子：你就算寫得再清楚，還是會要講
Wentz: No matter how clearly you write, you still have to talk about it
美瑜：你今天在這裡講的，其實又更細了，
Meiyu: What you talked about here today is actually more detailed.
國瑞：就是每次都有一些矛盾，那我覺得那個矛盾就呈現在我自己的表演裡面吧！表演就是一種很掙扎的狀態，就是我自己在，因為我們有演兩次嘛去年，然後演了兩次，第一次的時候其實就有一種算了，但是第二次在演的時候，其實還是有一種，就是有點拉扯，然後就有點卡卡的，然後可能當天的狀況，自己也會覺得卡卡的，然後就覺得，就是蠻反應我自己的，不管是對我自己的經驗或故事，或包含不管是性侵也好，或是我自己在談我使用藥物的經驗，有時候也會，覺得就是那個卡卡的感覺還是會出現，然後那種卡卡跟悶，有時候會覺得很煩，然後會讓我很生氣，然後可是那個生氣，也許就是對自己生氣有時候也是對，好像也是有時候也是對這個世界生氣。
Garry: There are some contradictions every time, so I think that contradiction should be reflected in my own performance! Acting is a state of struggle, even for myself, because we performed it twice last year, and then we performed it twice. The first time, I actually felt like forgetting it, but the second time, In fact, there is still one kind, that is, it is a little stretched, and then it is a little stuck. Then maybe I will feel stuck due to the situation of the day, and then I feel that it is quite reflective of myself, whether it is my own experience or The stories may include sexual assault, or I am talking about my experience of using drugs. Sometimes, I feel that the feeling of being stuck still appears, and then the feeling of being stuck and bored sometimes occurs. I feel very annoyed, and then it makes me very angry, and then that anger, maybe it is right to be angry at myself sometimes, and it seems that sometimes I am also angry at the world.
美瑜：我覺得就是你後來做了不同的選擇，就是你沒有那樣做，可是你選擇把這件事情講出來，你真實的感受，然後你選擇跟這麼多你不認識的，甚至你可能討厭的人，去講出那些讓你覺得很不舒服的，然後很憤怒的、很恨的那些經驗，我覺得你做了不一樣的選擇。有一件事情，很重要的是，我們決定一起再，試著再去打開這些這些事情。
Meiyu: I think you made a different choice later, that is, you didn’t do that, but you chose to tell this matter, your true feelings, and then you chose to talk to so many people you didn’t know, and even people you might hate, Talk about those experiences that made you feel very uncomfortable, angry, and hateful. I think you made a different choice. One thing that is very important is that we decided to try to open up these things together.
國瑞：我覺得這個東西就是在我們帕養團裡面，其實每個人都有這樣的經驗，就是因為在那個場合，大家可能比較會分享，或是大家覺得那個比較安全，對！然後但是在菊花就不會有聽到這樣子的，就是比較深，或是那種很負面的經驗，就比較不容易出場，所以大家會把事情講清楚，但是那個事情的感受跟狀態，我覺得就不會像那個帕養團裡面有那種很，就是大家其實會包容你，在當下其實是非常，有很多情緒張力，然後是憤怒的，然後是悲傷，然後是就是你可能，就是真的就像我剛剛講的那種，對世界不公不義這樣，然後看在眼裡然後非常生氣的那種，我覺得在帕養團裡面就會聽到這種東西比較多，然後就是大家各自的情緒，當然我們還是要作為帶領者，還是要把那個，就是像現在要把那個狀態又要拉回來這樣，但是我是覺得那個東西就很真實，就是，我覺得那可能就是大家有沒有覺得這個地方安全，然後可以談這件事情，然後我覺得那個東西好重要，就是當有個地方，可以讓我們去發洩一下，但是那個發洩就是有一個人可以在旁邊說，就是這個我也有，然後就是這個感覺，我懂，然後我覺得在那個團體，我就覺得這個會讓人覺得，這個我可以繼續往下走。
Garry: I think this thing is in our Positive health group. In fact, everyone has such experience, because on that occasion, everyone may be better at sharing, or everyone thinks that is safer, right! But in The Anus Monologues, you won’t hear people like this. It’s less likely to come out if you have a deeper or very negative experience, so everyone will explain the matter clearly, but the feelings and status of that matter, I I don’t think it’s like the people in the Positive health group, that is, everyone will actually tolerate you. At the moment, it is actually very, there is a lot of emotional tension, then anger, then sadness, and then it is possible for you, it is true. Just like what I just said, the kind of injustice to the world, and then seeing it in the eyes and making you very angry, I think you will hear this kind of thing more in the Positive health group, and then everyone will do it their own way emotions, Of course, we still have to be leaders, and we still have to do that, just like we have to bring that state back now, but I think that thing is very real, that is, I think it may be whether everyone feels that this place is safe. , and then we can talk about it, and I think that thing is so important, that is, there should be a place where we can vent, but venting means having someone beside us to talk to, and I also have this, and then this feeling, I understand, and then I think in that group, I think this will make people feel that I can continue to move forward with this.
美瑜：其實我覺得這個也是駿文跟檸檬，一直在試著去帶的，就是每一次測試多一點、多一點，然後去讓每一個人，不只是可以建立大家的信任關係，還有他去練習，對陌生的人、不是那麼熟的人，說那一些你剛才講的在帕養團裡面，大家因為很信任的關係，所以願意講出來的，那一些可能世界所不容的那一些情緒，那些感受，然後那一些對他來講是真的很痛、很刺的那一些東西，但是，我總是覺得即使現在菊花還沒有辦法走到那裡，可是我們是向著那個方向在走的，因為我們可以從每一次的駿文跟檸檬帶的課程，然後去看見每個人一點一點的在累積，特別的是，其實你看我們其實是很鼓勵大家不要只待一年，你待兩年待三年，你後面真的會不一樣的東西，就像我們在帕養裡面走的，他其實真的是要花時間去累積出來的，那個人跟人之間的那個關係。
Meiyu: In fact, I think this is what Wentz and Ningmeng have been trying to teach, which is to test more and more each time, and then let everyone not only build a trusting relationship with everyone, but also practice with them, To strangers and people you don’t know that well, tell me what you just mentioned. In the Positive health group, everyone is willing to talk about it because of the trusting relationship. Those emotions and feelings that may not be tolerated in the world. , and then those things that are really painful and stinging for him, but I always feel that even if The Anus Monologues has no way to go there now, we are walking in that direction, because we can From every Wentz and Ningmeng class, I can see that everyone is accumulating little by little. What’s special is that you see, we actually encourage everyone not to stay for just one year, but to stay for two years and three. Years later, things will really be different after you. Just like what we did in Positive health group, it actually takes time to accumulate the relationship between people.
國瑞：恩是
Garry: Yes
雅婷：好，那我們今天就感謝國瑞來參加我們今天的podcast的錄音，謝謝大家，大家下次還是要再收聽喔掰掰
Yating: Okay, then we would like to thank Garry for coming to participate in the recording of our podcast today. Thank you everyone. You should listen to it again next time. Bye bye.
美瑜蚊子國瑞：掰掰～
Meiyu＆Wentz＆Garry: Goodbye!